Introduction Of Podcast
India’s leading racing cyclist and an Ultrahuman athlete, Naveen John joins us on the podcast. Naveen shares how he found his love for bicycling and his journey to becoming the Indian to ride the bicycle the most. He also talks about some of the cutting edge technology he uses to optimises for his races. You’d not want to miss this.
- (00:00 – 01:54) – Introduction
- (02:37 – 07:38) – Naveen’s Journey Into Cycling
- (08:34 – 11:28) – Mental and Physical Aspects Of Training
- (11:30 -16:05) – Naveen On Nutrition
- (16:06 – 25:42) – Naveens Experience With M1 CGM
- (25:47 – 28:05) – A Biomarker Naveen Wants To See Ultrahuman Bring
- (28:06 – 29:54) – Naveen’s Home Training Setup
Key Takeaways – Transcripts
Intro (Mohit): If you have followed the cycling fraternity or the folklore built around cyclists, heard of folks like Marco Pentani and other professionals cyclists, and the amount of effort that they actually put into their training, you would almost always realize that it’s a masochistic sport and requires amazing amount of pain tolerance. And today we are actually joined by a professional cyclist who’s actually pretty much into pain tolerance and pushing his body to the next level. In today’s episode, we are joined by Naveen John, an Indian racing cyclist and an Ultrahuman athlete. He was crowned as a champion in the South Asian Games in the individual time trial mode of racing, a form of bicycle racing wherein cyclists race along against the clock. He’s the only Indian to have ridden professionally in the Division Three team back in 2016 in Australia and remains the only Indian to have spent multiple seasons racing in the US, Belgium & Australia. These are incredible achievements for a person living in a country like India, which doesn’t really have the elite infrastructure or the methods to train meaningfully. We discuss with Naveen how he found the passion for cycling and what are various aspects of competition that influences his training regime. We then chat about the nutrition aspect of his preparations and how he approaches it, along with various insights he could gather and implement using the M1 CGM device. To conclude, we asked Naveen what are the various biomarkers he’s keen to add to his health stack and optimize his performance. Without further ado, let’s get straight into it.
(Mohit): Naveen, such a pleasure to have you here. Really a big fan of all of your work. And of course, after meeting you a few months back, I was really looking forward to this conversation.
(Naveen): Thanks for having me on, Mohit, likewise. It’s been a pleasure kind of being part of this Ultrahuman tribe. Just learned a heap over the last couple of months and yeah, stuff that I’ll hopefully carry forward in life and evangelize a little bit. So, yeah, cool to sit down and have a chat with you, man.
Question (Mohit): So I’ve been hearing a lot about, of course, all the progress I think you’ve been making, in terms of optimizing your training, and I would love to double click on that very soon. But before that, I would want to understand a little bit about your journey, what got you to cycling and as a sport and what was sort of like the backstory around that?
Answer (Naveen): Yeah. So currently I ride probably bicycle more than anyone else in India does, but rewind 15 years ago is when I first found the bicycle. I was as far away from a cyclist or a competitive cyclist as anyone could possibly be. I was almost I grew up in the Middle East and 90s kid in the Middle East. Basically, the top three things life revolved around was tuitions, American fast food, and basically spending a lot of time in shopping malls and so very kind of passive lifestyle, a lot of junk food. That was my childhood. So you wouldn’t have recognized me if you saw me 15 years ago because I was close to 100 kilos and so very much overweight and wasn’t involved in physical activity or sport of any kind. And it was in college that I kind of discovered kind of cycling more as a social thing. It was the club aspect. Hanging out with friends, fundraising for social causes. That’s what got me into cycling as an activity. And then I kind of somehow meandered you know.
(Mohit): Where was this? Which college is this?
(Naveen): So this is a Purdue University in the Midwest, in Indiana, Cornfields for Miles and studying my engineering there. Ran into a bunch of people that are lifetime friends and they dragged me into this weird sport of Lycra and I was hooked. And that started my journey towards weight loss. I lost about 25 to 30 kilos over the course of six months of getting into sport. You know, and sport just kind of activity kind of triggered not to any consciously, it almost felt like it was something that just drew the body towards being more conscious about what I ate. Also, it felt like it was everyone knows that equation of calories in, calories out, but I was introduced to that, lost a whole bunch of weight, got in the competitive side of the sport, and I would call myself an elite amateur at that point. Training, revolved around life. But then about ten years ago, finished my engineering and decided to come back home to India and wanted to kind of came up with this idea of wanting to win my National Championships and booked a oneway ticket, came back here. And that’s where I would say my competitive elite, kind of pro-amateur kind of career in cycling started. And, yeah, it’s been an interesting journey ever since then. Getting to represent the country at the top level is never something I thought I would be able to do or have the chance to do. Just kind of took it month by month, year by year, and ended up there. It wasn’t a grand plan or anything like that.
(Mohit): That’s really cool. And to understand a little bit more, you got introduced to cycling as a sport. Where the other sports that you had tried at that point in time, cycling is construed to be very high in some cases, very masochistic and very pain oriented, apart from being like I’m talking about the sport format, not necessarily the casual cycling format, but yeah. What were some of the things that, like, drew you towards cycling?
Answer (Naveen): That’s an interesting question. A little bit of the psychology. I mean, cycling in some sense, I think endurance sport in general. In my journey of getting into sport and physical activity, I think there were three things that I tried out, was probably running, trail running. The other was cycling, of course, and the third was I did try a couple team sports, and I think what I was attracted towards running and cycling, mainly because they’re kind of solo sports in some sense. Of course, there is a club aspect to it. You are part of the tribe of cyclists and runners, but when you’re out there riding or running it’s, a lot of times it’s like time spent with yourself, kind of in your head, of course, being situationally aware so you don’t end up in the back of a car or something like that. But I think that aspect of it really attracted me to cycling and even running. It’s that there’s a little bit of a solo nature to it. And you can turn the dial of hurt on cycling and running as much as you really want to. You know, in a team spot, you kind of have to move at the pace of the group, else you can’t really be contributing to the team effort, right? In some sense. So, yeah, I mean, interesting question, but yeah, that definitely drew me to it. And it’s in fact one of the reasons why I still like it so much and why I’m still so drawn towards it. Because cycling is kind of that time that I get to myself where I can think about stuff and kind of resolve thought experiments to some end, and so then I come back off the bike and then I don’t have to think about it when I’m working and stuff like that. So it meets the dual purpose of kind of thinking and burning some calories while you’re at it, and being outdoors.
(Mohit): You still go out for those long rides where it’s not a training ride, but it’s just like your time with yourself.
(Naveen): Yeah. To be honest, I wish I could say yes. There are moments, I suppose my life now revolves a lot around competition schedules. It’s always like putting this date on my training peaks, and then there’s a week countdown to it, like 16 weeks, and that’s when you get really serious. But there are moments kind of in a year, probably two, three times in a year, if I’m not pulling up to a National Championships or an Asian championships, where I give myself like a week or two to just ride my bike. Just take my road bike out where it shouldn’t be on a gravel track or something like that, behind Nandi and just explore a bit. So, yeah, I still do that. Not as often as I’d like to, but yes, definitely.
Question (Mohit): But I think largely wanted to also double click on the mindset around competition and also training for yourself. What are some of the aspects of competition that actually change your training, both from mental makeup perspective and also physical training perspective? And that would be a question to start with.
Answer (Naveen): Yeah. So, cycling is one of those disciplines, at least in the competitive side, where there’s a lot of different flavors of it, and being part of a sport that’s nascent, where specialization hasn’t really taken root. You end up with, you know, cyclists in a particular discipline of road cycling, who can also compete over distances of, like, a 40 kilometer time trial, which takes an hour, or 120 or 160 kilometer road race, which takes 3 to 5 hours. And then on the other end of the spectrum, I can also switch my focus to a track event, a four kilometre pursuit, which takes four minutes, right? So all of them touch on very different bioenergetic systems. One is like fast glycolysis, the other is like aerobic with a neuromuscular at the end. And so, my training really ends up being really specific to the event that I’m focusing on and at different times of the year, it kind of involves just kind of switching things up a little bit. And usually my formula of specificity in the past, when I was first kind of in this space and exploring training paradigms and training modalities, I would always freak out. It’s like, oh, I have a road race that’s 3 hours, and then, like a month later I have an event that’s like an hour long and I would freak out about it. But over time and with the experience, I’ve learned that as long as you keep a high level of kind of basal aerobic and anaerobic fitness, like four to eight weeks, eight weeks, ideally, of specificity, really kind of helps you sharpen up towards like, a specific racing demand. And so I have this formula that’s kind of set that works. And of course, as far as the mental aspect of it, that’s also quite different because a four minute effort is a different kind of pain to a 40 minutes effort, to an hour long effort to a three hour effort. Right? And so that’s a little bit more of once you’re familiar with what the pain or the discomfort you’re going to experience is. And once you develop like, a toolkit to manage that different kind of discomforts, it’s kind of like a plug and play kind of thing. For a four minute effort, you can’t really let the mind wander. And every minute of those four minutes, you really have to just focus on like, certain process kind of tools. For a four minute effort, it’s like the basic thing I focus on is cadence. I just tell myself, tap, tap, tap, cadence. Right? For a three hour effort, on the other hand, my process focus would be eat and drink. Because if you don’t fuel and hydrate over a three hour effort, you’re not going to have that glycogen at the end to finish it off, right? So, yeah, that’s kind of a little bit about how the physical preparation and the mental preparation is slightly different.
Question (Mohit): That makes sense. That’s really cool. At what point in time, like, in this entire journey, did you actually start thinking about nutrition in a super serious way? Was that from day one?
Answer (Naveen): Good question. And to be honest, I am one of those riders. When I first started out, nutrition for me was just about at least in an event, I didn’t realize the significance of it. And as I started competing here at the elite level and also representing India, kind of an international competition, I was like, okay, nutrition is important, and it’s important on race day, and it’s important, like, in the four weeks leading into it, to sharpen up, right? It’s not until actually a month before I connected with you guys that I was starting to think, okay, ten years in the sport, at the top level, I’ve got maybe a couple more years to stay competitive where I want to be competitive. And I feel like I’ve maximized at some point, you reach this phase where, okay, you’re training 30 hours a week, right? Professionals train just as much. You know, I’ve maximized my power, the power I can develop on the bike. Just through years of training, I’ve barely seen any big changes in my power at PO two max and power at threshold, right? So what’s the other thing I can optimize? And for me, I’ve always felt like nutrition was almost the easiest thing to optimize, because with cycling and endurance sport, the training effects and your progression is cumulative. You can’t get from a threshold power of X to a threshold power of Y in three months. It takes, like, seasons of progressive overload right, and consistency. Whereas I always felt like nutrition was one of those things where if I set my mind to it and said, okay, I really want to optimize my weight and get to this optimal racing weight, I felt like that could happen very quickly. And then when I worked with nutritionists in the past, but I never found it to be really effective. And I think part of it was because I wasn’t mentally committed to the idea of committing to, you know, that razor sharp focus on nutrition, but then kind of with the CGM and things like that, all of a sudden I could start to quantify the impact of food and things in some way. And so I was like, okay, now I can see what’s happening when I eat. And it was almost like having that data stream kind of empowered me a little bit to say, hey, this is something new. Let’s try and see if we can optimize for weight. And in fact, the last six months, even a couple of months before I started working with you guys, was the first time in my life that I actually tried to optimize for weight. And I got to my lowest racing weight/lowest weight ever, that I’ve used as an athlete or a human ever since I was, like, 10-11 years old. But functional, athletic weight, it’s something that I only started looking at recently, and I’ve only started optimizing for it recently. So for me it’s like all new in some sense.
(Mohit): Yeah, I think that’s really interesting to know. Also, I think what I recollect from obviously nowhere close to the level of cycling, but I remember my brevet days almost ten years back. The classic principles around fueling would be around carb loading, so you load as much carb as possible a day or two days before a brevet, and the more you can load, probably, you’ll end up finishing. The probability of finishing will be higher, essentially, right? That’s how crude the nutrition science was for me as well, almost ten years back. I was trying to read a lot more about nutrition along the way, like ten years ago, but I think all the information that I got largely was around. There is a lot of information actually came from bodybuilders people who actually wanted to make changes quickly in their body composition. And a lot of that science is very solid, extremely solid, right? In terms of how they change the macros, it’s very stressful as well. Like how do you actually maintain a weighing scale and a food weighing scale, rather, and measure everything in precise order and sequence and precise quantities. But it’s definitely a super effective piece of science I always find fascinating, like how effective it is in terms of how it works, right? It’s almost like the human machine is very much boring and calculated.
(Naveen): Yeah, it’s very elastic. It can change very quickly, right? With nutrition, I feel like you can make certain changes and if you commit to it, you can make these changes quickly. Whether they’re lasting and whether those habits are sustainable, that’s a different topic altogether.
Question (Mohit): Yeah, absolutely. I think these are two different, but tell me a little bit about your experience with the blood glucose biomarker. And given that we are sort of like experimenting with I mean, glucose has two different connotations to cycling. One is that it’s interesting zone three fuel, so it’s definitely got to do a little bit with exercise performance or cycling performance. At the same time, there is value on your value for optimization, on your metabolic systems. Glucose can also tell you a little bit about your level of insulin sensitivity or your glucose disposition, capabilities, etc. It’s quite interesting on both the aspects. What have been some of your observations?
Answer (Naveen): So a couple of big ones for me. One for me, having a little bit of a biology background and things like that, I always knew the theory of bioenergetics, the Krebs cycle and the function of mitochondria and all of that stuff, right? Fast glycolysis and slow glycolysis. And so there’s the theory layer. And then as an athlete, what you end up doing is a lot of practical stuff. You’re pushing your body, you’re riding hard, you’re riding easy, you’re riding long, you’re riding fast, you’re riding fasted, et cetera. And so you’re playing around with bioenergetics in some sense, right? That continuum, right? And of course, as an athlete with experience, you start to kind of learn how to play with those things just based on experience. When you ride three lakh kilometers in your life, you played a little bit with fueling and misfuelling and all of those things. And so for the first time to have something that connected those two layers in a very kind of real way. Of course, it’s only one signal in that glucose level, interstitial fluid, but it is a signal. And it was almost like getting a signal from a life far away in space for the first time you get that signal and you’re like, oh, okay. And it took a while to understand because you do a ton of stuff when you’re out on a bike. Even when you go out on a zone two ride a brevet, you’re doing 200 km maybe you’re spending if you’re a fast rider, you’re doing 5 hours. I did like a five hour other day. And if you’re a slow rider, you’re doing it in 10 hours, right? But during those 10 hours it’s not like you’re sitting and just burning carbohydrates, right? I mean, an out and bright brevet. If you did it this time of year, you’re going to be riding 5 hours into a headwind on the way if you are riding out and then you’d be riding another four and a half in a tailwind, right? And the energy systems that you use for those two efforts are different, right? And if you crashed a little hill, you need to go anaerobic, right? So not everything is glucose fuelled. And that connection between that experience layer as an athlete, having ridden so much, and the knowledge layer as, you know, someone who’s inquisitive for the first time to connect those two was super powerful for me as an athlete and also as a coach, it kind of gave me this confidence to kind of tell the athletes that I work with or attempt to explain to athletes that I work with, hey, you know what? There is this signal. There is this thing, this very real thing that’s happening. So it’s not always just you being unfit or you lacking certain capacity. You’ve got to acknowledge the fact that there’s something going on in your body and you’ve got to acknowledge it and you’ve got to understand what’s going on there. And so that CGM data allowed me for the first time to develop that connection. The other big learning for me was this when I started doing efforts, I slapped on the sensor and I went out for rides and I started doing the different kind of workouts that I do. Go out to a hill and do a threshold effort, right? And the biggest thing for me was like, okay, I’m not putting any fuel in my body, any glucose, external glucose, but kind of to see the response of the glucose curve go up so that gluconeogenesis idea, right? So the fact that the effort that you’re putting out actually signals to the body, OK, to release glucose that’s available, that’s stored in our body. And I knew there was a thing called muscle glycogen and liver glycogen, but to see that that actually works is super empowering. The fact that you actually now know that it’s not just this thing in your head, it’s not just this thing you read in a textbook. The glucose, the bioavailable glucose level in your body is increasing to match the effort that you need to put out. So it made me a little more confident to realize that, oh, I don’t need to necessarily eat a crap ton before a workout if I’ve been fueling optimally during a week. And so all of a sudden that perhaps a little bit of being in surplus in my calorie intake was now kind of I said, oh, I don’t need to eat this massive carb meal like 3 hours before my ride because I’ve been fuelling optimally throughout the week and my body will make the glucose available as soon as I demand it, too. And the second big learning for me was this, which is oftentimes it depends on how frequently you train, but I kind of try to sweat once a day. This is kind of like this idea that I borrowed from Rich Roll. It’s like whatever you do, try and sweat once a day. It’s part of our evolutionary background in some sense, right? And towards that end, some days you feel great and some days you don’t feel great and some days it takes a while to feel great, right, when you’re doing some sort of physical activity. And I was like, okay, why is that? Is it all just a motivation thing? And what I realized was it goes back to this also another Rich Roll borrowing, which is mood follows action, this idea that you’ve got to do something to feel good, right? And that will feed the feeling better. And what that translates to in terms of glucose data for me that I learned was some days I’ll go out on the bike and I ride for an hour at a steady kind of zone two pace and I feel like crap. I feel like I’m carrying a bag of bricks or a sack of potatoes on my back. And I looked at my glucose data when I came back from the ride and I noticed it was pretty flat, right? Not doing much. But then some point during an hour and a half during a ride when I’m fitter, it takes me longer to turn on. I realized that eventually this glucose that’s available in the body kind of rises and I was like, okay, why does this happen? And I was like, oh, this is where I did a little bit of an effort. I signaled to the body through my effort that went above zone two, call it a warm up in some sense that, hey, I need fuel right now. I’m not passing around in zone two here. I’m here to push myself a little bit. And so what I learned is you can actually kind of turn the switch on and off and effort almost turns on that switch, right? If you’re fueled well leading up into a ride, that switch is that effort that you put into the pedals to signal to your body, hey, I need some glucose now, because that ultimately makes you feel good when you’re on the bike because you have that fuel available. So that was just two of the things. I mean, there’s a ton of smaller stuff, but that really kind of made a huge impact in the last couple of months making that connection.
(Mohit): That’s a really phenomenal observation. I think one observation from my end broadly around this would be that when I was trying to look at different quick sources, like essentially when I was looking at my glucose data and one thing I realized was similar to what you mentioned that there is and I used to call it the value of tears that oh, my glucose is not releasing. I’m not putting enough effort maybe. And maybe I need to put more effort and potentially body will come back with more glucose and hey, you can push harder. On certain days, I noticed that it is harder to release, get my glucose release primarily because I felt that I’m sleep deprived and this switch was getting harder and harder as more and more I’m sleep deprived. And it was weird because that’s exactly how I was feeling. Like basically when I was sleep deprived, I didn’t want to work out even if I got into the gym and wanted to work out. This shift from feeling terrible to feeling good did not happen as much versus on normal days where almost always the switch would happen. So this is a really interesting observation. I also appreciate the fact that you mentioned that and I think this is a great way to also sort of summarize how athletes should be thinking about the platform, is that, this is another stream of information about their own body. This is not a god biomarker. This is not everything that’s happening in the body, right? But this is to give you another 10% maybe about what’s happening in your body. And that would sort of generate a chain of curiosity, potentially that maybe there is something else that also happens. And this chase of curiosity actually is a very interesting process in itself.
(Naveen): Yeah. Expanding on your thought on those tired days when you go out, right? I feel like yes, on a day where you’re tired and you go out, or on a day where you are a little bit more stressed and you go out. What I’ve realized that or if you’re going out with a little more fatigue, is that eventually there is a delayed response to that kind of glucose being released. I found like on a day where I’m incredibly stressed, it takes me an hour to get to that place where I feel better. But of course, as an athlete you have expandable amount of time to train. As a person who’s got a day job, you’ve got a fixed amount of time to train. If you’re not on by the beginning, it’s a day where you have to accept, okay, I’m not going to feel, I’m not going to be got bored today in the gym. You have to accept that interesting.
Question (Mohit): Yeah. But I think that’s really cool that you actually brought this up. And what would be just summarizing thoughts, what would be like another interesting biomarker that you would like to see on the platform? A continuous real time bio marker that you would want to see?
Answer (Naveen): Well, that’s a really cool question. So one of the things that working with the Invictus team that they got me introduced to is HRV. And again, it’s another one of those things that isn’t determinant of how you’re going to feel on a particular day, but it definitely makes you more conscious about stuff. I think that’s an interesting one to be integrated into the app, if it isn’t already. I’m not sure if it is because I found HRV to be kind of interesting because it forced me to start my day with a breathing practice. Because to get that daily HRV reading, it requires you to just lay on the floor two and a half minutes, breathe in and breathe out. And I found that quite just that habit to be quite centering. So in some sense it wasn’t the biomarker itself that was empowering, it was the fact that it forced me into a habit. And on crazy busy days, it’s hard to get into that practice. But I think it’s a cool biomarker to be added into that stream of things. I found it really behavior changing almost and something I still do.
(Mohit): Really cool, that’s one of the things that will go live very, very soon on the platform is our own hardware. So, definitely coming up with HRV and other parameters that you can measure in real time and also HRV in real time doesn’t really mean anything, but I think you’ll get a day level sense of HRV movement. The other aspect I think that super inspired about is that we might be getting very soon lactate and Ketones on the platform as well. Via the lactate biomarker
I think it’s going to be super interesting in terms of how do you actually end up seeing your lactate threshold almost. We’ve seen a lot of athletes measure that via a static fingerprick based system. It’s very painful. It’s also not that accurate versus if you have a continuous stream of data on lactates, definitely changes the game. Also Ketones, because if people who want to be in Ketosis and want to use Ketones as fuel this. Sort of like tells you, when do you actually start burning fat? When you’re started burning ketones as fuel. So those are the two major upgrades coming this year. And of course, the hardware is coming very soon.
Final question from my side. What’s your home training set up?
(Naveen): My home training set up, I mean, I have an indoor trainer, which a wheel of indoor trainer. I find that that’s such a cool thing to have. And I usually hop onto Zwift or sometimes I just listen to some music or listen to podcasts. It’s my podcast/social media update center. Because indoor rides, you can divide your attention a little bit more because you’re not worried about running into a car or something. I think it’s one of the most efficient ways to train. As I get older, I find that having to be on a call doesn’t quite allow you to go out and ride as much as I used to in the past. And I found that indoor riding is a lot more efficient. You can burn three times the amount of calories you can outdoors in an indoor then you can outdoors. My indoor training set up is my go to. And then outdoor training is a simple road bike. And that’s what my training set up is like pretty basic.
(Mohit): And Zwift is pretty awesome too, I think, normally.
(Naveen): Yeah, absolutely. And the gamification of it, initially, I was very resistant to get on it because the gamification was something I didn’t connect with. Maybe it was just the way I grew up and stuff like that. But eventually, once the social aspect comes into it, you can ride with friends. I actually got drawn into it because it was a brilliant opportunity to ride with the same bunch of people that got me into cycling recently, halfway across the globe, I had to wake up at 3:30 to join them for the ride in the morning. But it was worth it to connect with a couple of old friends on Zwift.
(Mohit): Yeah, pretty cool piece of fun. That is really cool. Now I love my Zwift setup as well. It’s really cool. You can just hop on hop off the bike any time of day. Yeah, whenever you want. It’s been such a pleasure, man. Naveen, I think, to connect finally, and I think there’s a lot I learned in this podcast and in this conversation. I really love the perspective around the mindset, around how you approach a biomarker or anything that’s enabling you to do more with technology, right? But combined with your instincts and your methods, your own methods, right? Because I think that’s what’s going to define and improve the existing technology systems. We can’t completely rely on new technology because if you don’t have instinct, you can’t really like, technology will not help you. And I mean, just having instincts without any data might also not be the best path. It might really good path, but might not be the best path, the power of combining these two and the mindset is something that is really interesting, and I certainly learned a lot more about that and really had a ala time talking to you. So looking forward to interacting more in the future.
(Naveen): Maybe on a bike ride. Awesome. Good stuff.
(Mohit): All right. Thank you, Naveen.
Outro (Mohit): Naveen’s cycling career is illustrious so far, and his future seems extremely bright, and I think the amount of motivation he drives for millions and millions of potential cyclists in India is just very promising, especially considering the various aspects of training that he implements on a day to day basis. He’s bringing a new perspective to how cyclists train. If you too are a budding cyclist and want to make it big in this space, I hope the episode was a thought starter for you in terms of what the ground realities are, some of the things that you should be watching out for and optimizing for, being a pro cyclist, and what it takes to be among the best. As Naveen gears up for 2022 Asian Games, we wish him all the very best and all the Indians and everyone, every cyclist a cycling fan would be sharing for him on the sidelines . If you like what we’re doing with the Ultrahuman Podcast, please share, follow, and subscribe to us. We have a lot of prominent guests lined up in the upcoming episodes. Stay tuned and I’ll see you soon with the next one.